Q: Interviewers A: Wang Qingsong
Q: Hello!
Mr. Wang. It is our great honor to interview you. Here in
your studio we can see most of your art works hanging on the
wall. I know you graduated from Sichuan Fine Arts Academy.
How are you engaged in creating photographs?
A: Yes.
I painted a lot in the past and participated in some group
shows at home and abroad. After 1996, I started to work with
photography. Now I am not painting any more.
Q: Many
readers like your works a lot. Do you know what intrigues
them the most?
A: Most
of my photographs are about human beings. Because my photos
are closely related to social relationships which select colorful
and contradictory stories, most people find them very interesting
and thoughtful.
Q: What
is the original impulse that activates your creation?
A: People
changed their mind and concept at the end of 1980s. Suddenly
we had a lot of new ideas. I graduated in 1991. By then I
was quite old compared with my classmates. However, my works
tended to be in line with "new generation". Artists
like Liu Xiaodong paid more attention to unimportant figures
around him and stopped painting great masters. People had
a sense of intense boredom though it was not boredom in its
usual sense. Anyhow we all felt consciousness of responsibility
though it was not grandiose any more. We were still responsible
for friends and ourselves.
I started to paint works termed by art critics as the school
of "gaudy art". What impacted me and society the
most was the talk Mr. Deng Xiaoping gave in his visit to South
China in 1992. After that, the commercial tendency became
more rampant. Each cultural elite would like to confront with
this adverse tendency instead of being cynical. I painted
a series of oil works with figures wrapped up in plastic.
These works expressed all psychological situations when people
felt troubled which were difficult to get rid of. I gradually
found the harm that commerce plays on culture. Maybe it is
because Chinese people have been poor for so long time; each
person has a pompous desire for money. In my works people
can find my attitude towards "modernization". In
addition, I become more and more interested in photographs
even though not all ideas have to be expressed with photos.
Q: So
it means what is important is idea and concept. Photography
is only one kind of language which helps expressing your concepts.
You select different media and forms to express different
concepts.
A: That
is right. Sometimes installation is considered. Sometimes
realistic photography is requested. I don't think all people
need to apply photographs. Actually, at the very beginning,
I did not even think of photographs because I thought they
were from the West. I only wanted to work on oil paintings
and use the form of traditional Chinese yearly paper painting
which had gaudy color and flat human descriptions ignoring
perspectives. However, I found out oil paintings were also
from the West. Almost all art forms came from the West. Why
do I have to refuse the west? Since photographs give better
description of my ideas, why to refuse it? Photos are much
better in fitting for my intention. That is enough.
Q: Which
work did you create first in the form of photograph?
A: My
first photograph is Three
Sisters which I made in a shopping plaza at the end of
1996. It is very much like a Chinese New Year painting. I
changed the girls' heads with my head through computer manipulation.
At that time I had been thinking of the issues about nationality
and modernization. Therefore many works were like New Year
peasant paintings which are also shown in my later works.
Q: Besides
Three Sisters, can you introduce to us some of your earlier
works?
A: Another
earlier work is Last
Supper(1997) . I find it much easier to express my idea
through photographs because images are true. Different from
paintings, photos give people more realistic feelings while
paintings are much more active since the artist has more options.
More precisely, I find photographs are much more fit for me
to express "pop culture" and my attitude towards
"pop culture" .
Q: Do
you think the truth of photography comes from scenes that
we capture from real life?
A: Yes.
I make my photographs into "a false theater" which
everyone feels familiar and sees it somewhere. However paintings
cannot express such direct information.
Q: What
requirements do you ask for models?
A: First,
I don't have requirements about how the models look like and
how old they are. I am not interested in whether they are
beautiful or handsome. Half of the models work in the Central
Academy of Fine Arts. As regards props, costume in particular,
I buy from street peddlers at very cheap ones.
Q: We
find that you use your own image as the direct narrator in
your works, for example, your earlier works such as Thinker
(1998), Requesting
Buddha (1999), Another Battle series
(2001) . In New
Women (2000) , Can
I cooperate with you? (2000) and Finding
Fun (2000 ) , we see some female images. Could you tell
us why you don't use male models when inviting models?
A: At
the beginning I thought it more convenient to use my own image
since I had to consider the right to use portraits of other
people. I didn't want to have much trouble. The reason why
I only invite female models is because it will be too difficult
to mix men and women. In my works, the make-up for models
is very important. They are dressed up with kitschy dresses.
I often pay them at a much higher price than that on the market.
In my works I want to express that the society is looking
at me while I am looking at the society. If I am not involved,
such effect cannot be achieved and it will be impossible to
highlight "my" participation.
Q: The
truth of lens is considered the most essential of photography.
Once it is applied to describe a false scene, a dramatic tension
shall be created. Is this difference your idea to increase
a much more powerful impact on concepts?
A: There
are some factors. When you see my pictures, you find them
existing somewhere in reality. However such scenes cannot
be found exactly in real life. In fact, I am parodying through
imitating. Since I am imitating, the scenes in the photos
are not really true facts.
Q: In
your works we see firstly some shadows from Chinese culture
from the perspective of your forms. For example, in Thinker
(1998) , Can I cooperate with you? (2000) and your other works,
why do you imitate intentionally the form?
A: This
is not a simple imitation. What is most important for me is
representativeness no matter it is the idol image in Buddhism
or a Chinese painting that people know much about. These pictures
are very typical. In these typical paintings, I apply new
substance onto the old ones.
Q: Could
you elaborate?
A: What
I imitate is very familiar to most of us. I choose the paintings
or the postures that are very typical. Therefore it demands
one have a thorough mastery over Chinese culture. Requesting
Buddha (1999) represents Buddhism. Can I cooperate with you?
(2000) represents diplomacy. Night
Revel of Lao Li (2000) represents intellectuals. These
ancient Chinese paintings have lost meanings for my creation.
I only choose the painting that has some relations to the
contemporary society. I don't wanna emulate simply since it
is very boring.
Q: What
do you think the most important for art creation, form or
idea? As far as artistic form is concerned, do you think it
is important to have such fresh feeling as the one who eats
crab first?
A: It
is impossible to have absolute creation in form in this contemporary
society. Therefore the first person that eats crab does not
exist at all. I hold that idea is more important than form
since different times have different feelings and attitudes
with regard to the same questions.
Q: Have
you ever been confused by form? Are you faced with such difficulty
as failing to find the most adequate manner to express your
excellent ideas?
A: Of
course I have such trouble. Once I lost clues as for what
I should do next. However I was very eager to shoot some photos.
There are also changes when photographing. Most of the time,
the idea after finishing photographing is totally different
from my original idea. New ideas come up when I photograph.
Q: Do
you still have some regrets and how do you make up after your
detailed preparation?
A: There
are many regrets. I hope to achieve perfection. When I see
unsatisfactory parts in my photographs, I often try to make
up through computer manipulation.
Q: Do
you like wars since there shows a taste for war in your work
Another Battle series (2001)
?
A: This
series are influenced by my experiences in childhood. I wanted
to become a soldier when I was a middle school student. We
were born in 1960s. We are different from those born in 1960s
described in the novels by Wang Suo. Those guys are 3 to 5
years older than us and received different impact from the
Cultural Revolution. They could sing revolutionary Peking
opera while I could not. However many movies about war left
a deep impression on me that include Little Solider Zhang
Ga, Guerrilla on the Railway, Grenade War, and etc. In the
contemporary society, certain specific situations that people
experience in wars shall be reflected again. At present it
seems that there exists a warring status expressed in the
market economy. This is a war between economies.
Q: We
have noticed that certain feelings reach climax in your latest
series on battle. Does it refer to any changes you are making
in your creation?
A: Exactly.
I apply war to express the climax in feelings. It is like
the most magnificent stroke in a painting. After that I shall
change my thematic subjects and return to enthusiasm that
was highly regarded before 1989. However such enthusiasm is
totally different.
Q: Would
you mind elaborating some more?
A: I will
focus on ideal. Ideals change dramatically. I shall try to
present enthusiasm in a low key.
Q: How
can such thoughts be reflected in your following works?
A: My
coming new works shall look more solemn. However I don't want
them to be too serious. I want people feel more relaxed seeing
my works. I am very conscious of the effect in exhibitions.
In each exhibition I often stay far away and see people's
reactions in secrecy. It is a lousy matter if none notices
your work. It is very comforting if someone looks at your
back once again even just for one second. When I shoot photos
I want my photos direct and simple. I want to use three works
to tell one same subject since it is difficult to express
all problems with only one work. The first essential factor
for visual art is aesthetics. As long as people look back
again your work, it means your works deserves appreciation.
Q: Does
your heart experience certain psychological strike or transformation
at the era of a new millennium?
A: I think
that we still need ideals in the new century. However we need
to calm down and reflect upon the past. Have we fulfilled
our past expectations? Do those ideals have certain meaning?
Q: Does
increasing age impact your creation?
A: For
sure the increasing age shall impact my creation. The first
love for a 15 year-old man and 35 year old man is totally
different.
Q: Almost
all your works express a kind of confrontation against foreign
commercial culture as far as thematic subject is concerned?
A: Yes.
Up to Another Battle series, this idea comes to the most intensity.
My new works are mostly about ideals. This ideal is not the
past ideal. I am not praising main melody of patriotism. However
ideal has a common feature.
Q: Which
contemporary artist do you think influences you the most?
A: I think
contemporary artists have few impact on me. However journalism
photos during the Cultural Revolution influence me the most.
Like many group photos, they are arranged to set up posture
like the way it is photographed.
Q: Do
you think your works will be accepted extensively by domestic
media?
A: Of
course my works shall not be accepted extensively. The art
circle is very small. It doesn't matter that much because
art is not a savior. In the contemporary society, artists
are not more important than entrepreneurs. In 1980s, if an
artist appeared on TV, his status would be increased, such
as Luo Zhongli who became well known once winning an award.
However things are totally different now. There are not any
news reports about artists. However some common guys can become
pop stars, in particular in the fields of IT and computer
industry. Almost all newspaper shall report his achievements
because they are of commercial value. For example, the column
New Vision of PHOTOCHINA is looking for more sales through
publicizing contemporary artists. With this part of the reports,
it will sell some more copies. However it is not simply for
the sake of art because it takes a risk. Not only they want
to seek favor from the public, but also they seek for commercial
purpose.
Q: Do
you pay attention to reaction of common populace on your works?
A: Common
people like my works a lot. It seems they can understand my
works. For example, Night
Revel of Lao Li (2000). One person saw the work and told
me, "your work is wonderful!" I asked, "why
do you think so?" He said, "I understand it as soon
as I see it." I asked, "How do you understand my
work?" He said, "one old man sees people enjoying
massage. He enters." I know of course that he reads the
photo from the other end. However I think he is right too.
He can understand some parts which are related to his education
and experience even though he does not know much about the
hero in the photo. Therefore it is easy to understand why
he cannot see further. If he learns about the original meaning
of Night Revel of Han Xizai, maybe the effect will be different.
Anyway, you cannot tell each person your artistic attitude.
It is not necessary first of all. Secondly it will allow for
misinterpretation.
Q: What
do you think of the difference between the concept of the
artist and the understanding of recipients?
A: There
must have different understandings. We should allow for different
interpretations. For example, over the last two years some
artists put corpses onto the stands in exhibitions. Many people
could not accept it. I personally feel it goes too extreme.
However some men feel it is all right. They think corpse is
only one kind of material like an object under medical dissection.
I think it such a good thing if different voices are mixed
up. It will be too abnormal if all people disagree. But I
do believe it is too much if this act is done out of sheer
purpose of corpse and even worse when it may be developed
up to refining human oil.
Q: Do
you often invite photographers to shoot for your works?
A: At
the beginning my wife took some of my earlier photos. I taught
her how to take the pictures since I only had a camera easy
to manipulate which did not have a function for self-photographing.
At present I often rent a photo studio and invite photographers
who are mostly my friends. Otherwise it will be very difficult
to take those pictures. Before shooting, I often ask somebody
to replace my position and stand where I will go so that I
can see the effect from the lens. After adjustment, the photographer
finishes the technical problem.
Q: Why
do you limit the use of digital technology in your later works?
A: I want
to change. Therefore I intentionally eliminate the use of
digital technology as much as possible. I hope it will be
more and more realistic. Moreover it is very tiring to produce
digital photographs. Unless I need such technology, I would
not use it.
Q: What
status do you think photography belongs to in the category
of art?
A: I feel
that in the west the demarcation is not clear at all. Painters
and photographers are called artists. They would not say that
you are photography artists. They will never categorize artists
in China into Chinese traditional painters, oil painters,
printers, sculptors and etc. If you say that you are a printer,
he would take you as a researcher in printmaking. Art as a
profession is very mixed up. You can do this or that. Then
how can the issue of profession of art be resolved? So it
is much easier if they are called artists or visual artists.
Q: What
do you think of conceptual photography?
A: I am
not for this term of conceptual photography. I more like the
term photographs. Conceptual photography sounds like reasonable.
It will be like calling Chinese painting installation, conceptual
oil painting, or Chinese painting of performance art. Therefore
it is really ridiculous. I want to use photographs to categorize
such art since it is more extensive. Anyhow it is only a medium
with two dimensions no matter with what material one uses.
Q: Often
artists who do conceptual art give people some feelings of
currying favor. What do you think of this opinion?
A: It
is normal to have such feelings. If you want to be avant-garde,
you gonna be rebellious. If you are rebellious, you are gonna
to give people feelings of currying favor. For example, if
we take works in Van Gogh times to the age of Da Vinci, such
works will be considered as currying flavor. However history
shall evaluate all stuff. When Ma Liuming did performance,
many people said that he was currying flavor by claptrap.
However, I think it is all right. Once in Kwangju Biennale
2000, after he finished his performance, Ma Liuming slept
for two hours sitting on a sofa. In addition, he snored which
people mistook him as currying flavor. The reason, I think,
that he wants to snore is at least because he did not wanna
to be different from others. If five people all want to seek
for favor, the noisiest guy will be the smartest one. It is
very difficult to be different while to be successful through
currying favor. People all stand at the same starting line.
It is so difficult to be different. In 1993, when I came to
Beijing, I saw paintings by Fang Lijun. I was amazed that
he had such big paintings hanging on the wall. I was moved
by his spirit that he continued creating at such a difficult
time. He would never thought of selling a lot of money. In
contrast, there are a lot of people who fail to create any
new works even if they do not seek favor from others. I would
rather appreciate those who curry favor because they are motivated
to produce new stuff. This is a development course, which
we cannot speak correctly or wrongly. However if we negate
it completely, we must control a lot of new ideas and trials.
Q: One
view holds that Chinese avant-garde art often is forced to
play a role of weakened culture in the front of cultural imperialism
represented by western art. What do you think of this view?
A: When
Chinese artifacts enter the vision of westerners and get accepted,
somebody thinks that Chinese artists are flattering the west.
Many people have such views at the very beginning. Yes, it
is correct that Chinese stuff is different from those in the
west. Even if paintings by Chinese artists are the same stuff,
Chinese will have a different perspective. On this part I
believe Chinese people are at an advantage. Anyhow it is a
good thing if Chinese artists' works are exhibited in an international
exhibition together with western masters. When I attended
Kwangju Biennale 2000, Kiefer's works were right beside my
photographs. I don't think they are different from mine. If
it is not Kiefer's works, other people might take a more detailed
look at my works because they are more interesting.
I think this is a way to resolve the problem in the abnormal
period of time. Finally good works will be produced. This
course of development is very slow. If not, you just keep
silent. On the stage of western art, Chinese avant-garde works
are very limited since there is not a well disciplined art
market. We are lack of good exhibition halls. So there is
no way out. There are a lot of exhibitions funded by artists
themselves. In this case, people have to find another way
out. For example, artists take the perspective which westerners
can accept. If the westerns like their works, they will invest.
I don't see anything bad about it. Of course a lot of others
will emulate if this way is successful. Out of 100 people
who imitate, there must be one or two persons' works which
are good enough. Once one is successful, he will establish
his value and status. In your words, westerners shall listen
to what you say. They feel your works are hot which are of
course made in China. If many western museums have your "merchandise",
they will safeguard your interests. At this time, your own
language shall be expressed freely. Otherwise, there is no
opportunity for you to speak up.
Nowadays many Chinese artists living in the west have a hard
time since they have no way to resolve their problem. If they
play Chinese card, somebody says that they are currying favor
from the west. If they don't play Chinese card, can they play
western card? It is like westerns are learning Chinese calligraphy.
If Van Gogh is reborn, he can be the worst calligrapher at
most. However as long as he insists on his way of writing
calligraphy, he will become much better. Therefore this is
a way under the condition there is not any better way out.
However, after five or ten years, things will change for the
better. People who fail to get favor from the west will drop
out. Chinese people will become much mature. I am sure it
will take a long time. I am not holding back my idea.
Q: How
do you like photography criticism or art criticism?
A: At
present criticism is very limited. I have no clue about the
situation in photography criticism. However in the art field,
criticism is pretty general. Some exhibitions were realized
by independent curators such as Mr.
Li Xianting. Since art exhibitions are commercialized,
it needs a lot of money to sponsor an exhibition that includes
printing catalogue. In the past there were not any catalogues.
A lot of people came to see the show and remembered the works
by heart. Sometimes art magazines might publicize the exhibitions,
with only tiny photos printed. The artists would be very happy.
When business gets involved, situation is totally different.
Curators must go all out to find sponsors. However as educated
men, curators mostly are very embarrassed. So sometimes artists
would collect money from participants and organize a very
simple invitation exhibition. In 1996, we held the first show
in Beijing and made only an invitation on a piece of paper
that included our names and the time of the exhibition. At
that time we were very proud.
Q: How
did you come to Beijing?
A: If
I stayed at home, I think I would not insist on doing art
since there would be no point of stimulation. I remember when
I came to Beijing in 1992 to see a collection exhibition sponsored
by Japanese Art Museum in China National Art Gallery, I saw
a lot of visitors keeping notes. I was moved. After the exhibition,
I wanted to buy some canvas. I learnt that a shop outside
the Central Academy of Fine Arts in Wang Fu Jing Street sold
such cloth. However I could not find the shop in the crossroads.
So I asked an old man who repaired bicycles. "Grandpa,
where is the Central Academy of Fine Arts?" He responded,
"why are you looking for the Academy?" I told him
that I wanted to buy some linen cloth. He told me "Linen
is great." He continued to tell me that linen would not
be transformed and had a sustainable performance. I was so
amazed. People in Beijing were so well educated. Therefore
I made up my mind to come to Beijing. Later on in 1994, I
asked a friend and learnt that the old man was the model for
decades of years in the Central Academy of Fine Arts. Everyday
he listened to what the students said. Therefore he became
a half expert.
